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CATEGORY: Watch I bought for review.

This watch is troubling.

Let me give you some background.

I purchased this via a post on a Facebook watch group. A gent called Chuck Tze posted the below:

So, a watch that looks like a Submariner face and hands in a Panerai style case. It’s got the venerable Seiko 4R35 auto movement, Domed Sapphire, 120 click bezel with lumed ceramic insert, 300m WR…for $175 shipped.

That’s it. “A small batch of a fun project”.

From what I understand Mr Tze was also behind the “Shark” Seiko 6105 homages that did the rounds last year. Indeed, Mr Tze has been around a while making small batch watches, that people who buy them have a lot of praise for. Kinda reminds me of Bill Yao, but without the prices.

Having 3 x Seiko Turtles, 6105 homage didn’t interest me, but the owners reviews that I saw on FB and forums seemed to say they were a decent watch.

Mr Tze is based in Taiwan.

So, anyway, on to the watch.

It took about a week to arrive from the Far East.

I opened the box to find a decent fake leather travel case, a bit like the ones I used for Deaumar, but with Independent Watch branding on it.

Inside was the watch and a warranty credit card. Now, I made warranty cards like these for Deaumar and I don’t think you can get one or two made, it has to be hundreds, likewise the travel case.

The strap on the watch is a really nice thick leather with an engraved buckle. But it’s brown. I don’t like brown on black faced watches, but it seems to be the trend as it’s the 3rd MB black faced watch I’ve bought recently with a brown leather on it.

Anyway, I took the plastic protectors off the back and the face and had a good look.

It looked really good. This was a surprise. The Dan Henry 1963 I bought for $250, although a chrono, felt a lot lighter than this too.

I took it off the brown strap and put it on what I’m finding is my fave leather, a quilted style one. Second surprise. 24mm lugs, held in like the Gruppo Gamma Divemaster, with screws. I then put it on a shark mesh.

I then looked at the back. I’m not a caseback fan, but this seemed decently engraved. I’ve not tried to open it, but it looks like it is held down with small screws. That’s different, most are a single screwdown back.

I grabbed the bezel. It rotates nicely. It has a nice coin edge. Not the tightest, but it’s precise, tactile and lines up. The insert is ceramic. All the indices are lumed. It lights up nicely.

The case is of a design that is becoming more and more conventional, a Panerai submersible style. I’m pretty sure that this uses the same case as the Magrette Moana Pacific. At least visually.  It’s brushed all over and is done well, but I thought the all over brushing was a bit boring. I polished the sides of mine, I like it like this better. I think it adds some contrast and makes the watch look better.

The face and hands are the weakest parts I think. The indices are painted lume. The logo looks like a thin sticker. The white date window at 3 I think looks fine. All the other markers are white, so this works with them. I’m not a lume freak, but it all lights up nicely.

The hands are typical Rolex “Mercedes” hands. The logo also looks like a crown, a la Rolex, and even the name Independent Watch (Company?) would make an interesting acronym…especially if Citizen gets wind as they have a JDM company called Independent.

I actually think it would look better with some more text on the face. The logo isn’t offensive, but I can’t say that I love it. I would have liked “Automatic” in white printed above the “300m” which is written in red.

The crown is big and easy to grip. It turns nice and screws down easy enough. It’s also signed with the “IW” logo.

The crystal doesn’t have AR coating, but it’s nice and doesn’t distort at angles…the face just seems to get deeper.

As Mr Tze has said in his FB post “A dive watch with combination of two timeless designs that I personally loved”. He’s not trying to pass this off as anything else. Every watch is subjective, but I don’t know of a watch that looks exactly like this, so I won’t label it an “homage”.

He also does versions with graduated brown and green faces. A graduated blue would be a nice alternative.

It is a big watch, but I’ve got big guns and big wrists, so it looks good on my wrist and I enjoy wearing it.

On a sharkie it looks the business. On a NATO it looks very tool like. On a quilted leather it looks sophisticated and on an ISO it looks like a serious diver.

And here’s where the “troubling” bit comes in. It has no right to look and feel this good, with these components, at this price.

You see, I don’t like “bargain hunter” watch fans. They don’t like a watch for how it looks or how it feels, they negate the intangible “magic” that a watch you love gives you when your wear it. They have a formula which dictates what each individual component is worth and therefore how much the watch should cost as a whole. I know I keep harping on about it, but that isn’t the way to buy a watch.

I bought this watch for review as I wanted something that another blog won’t have reviewed first, and it was cheap, so I thought what the heck. But after wearing it for a bit, I didn’t want to review it at all.

I started Watch Thoughts to be different. To have no paymasters tainting my actual thoughts. To not accept freebie watches in order to give an objective review, but this is a new site, I didn’t want to put manufacturers off sending me review watches by doing bad reviews, nor to annoy people who do like a certain watch either, to stop them spreading the word. I have to stick to the principles on which I founded this blog, I have to do a review.


Because this watch is as good a quality as an MB watch costing many times its price, it’s from a guy with a solid “word of mouth” reputation and has been making watches for at least a decade from what I can tell and yet it’s cheaper than the cheapest “early bird” of many new brands Kickstarter launch pledges by some margin.

When I polished the sides of the case with my Dremel and Dialux, it polished to a mirror finish quickly and easily. This is good steel. The look, the feel, is of a quality much higher than I was expecting. If the face had applied indices, I don’t know what I’d say…

The strap is better than some I’ve received with MB watches costing much more. The travel case is the equal of some and better than others. The finishing is good, the little touches (like the screwed lugs) are a nice surprise and as a whole, this would be a decent watch at triple the price.

And this is a bad thing for Microbrand watches.

Mr Tze I believe is based in Taiwan, near the heart of the watch making world. He doesn’t have to pay for high cost shipping from the factory so he can QC them. He doesn’t then have to pay import duties.

Mr Tze doesn’t have massive marketing budgets. He doesn’t seem to have a website to upkeep. He doesn’t need to make the profit that someone doing this for a living does, especially if they want to establish a brand and make it sustainable. That needs bigger profits.

It’s troubling as watches like this will kill new MB brands. That’s because of the way that social media is dominating marketing for young brands. The established brands have their name and their fans. New brands, they’re going to get beaten over the head on price because watches like this exist. “What! $500 for that! I can get an Independent Watch with similar specs and the same movement for $175 shipped! You’re having a laugh”

Only a few may say this in public, but hundreds may read it and drawn their own conclusions, and this has an impact.

And that’s why I’m not urging you to buy this watch. I know some of you may be saying “Oh, he’s only fighting on the side of his MB buddies, as his brand failed, besides, these are one offs”

The fact that Mr Tze has had boxes and warranty cards made, makes me think these “fun” projects may expand and become more numerous…

No offence Chuck, I really like this watch. I’m keeping this watch and not flipping it like I thought I would. This is a well made, good looking watch, in my opinion, and is fantastic value.

It’s a shame though that it represents another stick for the trolls to bash, already struggling, Microbrands on the head with…


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View comments 19


  1. frenco

    Great review! I’m sorry you have a MB owner perspective, many of us have a MB buyer perspective though! I did not like this design but I bought two other watches from Chuck and was happy with both them and the transaction. I do get the point of this type of business killing many micros but who cares, there’s so many of them now, every week a few. Again, who cares?

    1. Tony Villa

      No one cares right now. It’s a golden time for the watch buyer, so much choice and low prices, but it’s a race to the bottom. People can’t sustain businesses at these profit margins (look at Deaumar) and they will close. Then there will be a lot less choice and only the big boys will survive. Then prices will rise again…

  2. Leo

    @Frenco, I’d like to offer a different MB buyer perspective. I’ve got 3 MB watches, plan to add at least a couple more to the collection. While many MB are derivative and don’t add much to the equation, some MBs offer genuinely interesting designs (and good quality) at reasonable prices.

    The more MBs out there, the greater chance for something cool to come along, and that – to me – is worth preserving, and worth paying a couple of hundred euros extra per watch.

    1. Tony Villa

      Well said!

  3. frenco

    I don’t think the scenario you guys depict is realistic. I think this young MB business will evolve, but low prices are here to stay and nice designs too.
    BTW, I see all these micros popping up like mushrooms in the forest yet nothing really interesting in their offers.
    Deaumar was one of the few that was really interesting, along with Helm, OM, GG etc., I’m sorry it didn’t work but that does not change the whole picture.

    Tony, what is your take on the Hamtun watch? I’m puzzled. Not about the watch, I’m puzzled about the whole thing.

    1. Tony Villa

      Deaumar is all the proof you need. Everyone who has one says that they are worth a lot more than they paid. Some are on eBay now for £400, yet I couldn’t sell any at £250. I couldn’t sustain the business at £150 a watch, which is all I could sell them at. If there wasn’t the likes of Hamtun doing a titanium watch, of those specs, then maybe I could have charged more. I chatted with Ross whilst he was just founding the company, helped with guidance where I could. I think it’s success was not expected and he’s had to scale up to deliver, hence the silence, but he’s getting ready to ship soon. He was sending me a watch for review, but as of yet I haven’t received anything. I’m not bitter about Hamtun, but I don’t think he’ll do his next watch as cheaply as this as simply, there can’t be enough profit in it to sustain the business.

  4. frenco

    Well, we’ll see.
    The Deaumar was stellar in quality and spec, but the initial low price perhaps compromised the whole thing… once you position a product at a certain price level, it’s incredibly hard to change that perception.
    But of course I can’t say for sure.

    1. Tony Villa

      I genuinely hope I’m wrong. A large selection of cheap and cheerful watches along with really decent expensive ones is the panacea.

  5. Romu

    Sorry, I am knew in the watch world..what does it mean “MB”

    1. Tony Villa


  6. X2-Elijah

    I suppose that MB are left with pushing ‘design’ as their remaining justification for higher prices. (and, conversely, by using actually unique designs and not just parts-bin catalog items like with this watch, the costs rise up even more, so it’s still a balancing act).

  7. Leo

    Got a Hamtun incoming… Sorry Tony, saw it before I came across Deaumar.

    Gotta say I do agree with Frenco on the pricing… IMHO you priced too low, which created expectation for the quality and pigeonholed the brand in a certain way. Pricing – when it comes to web sales – is even more critical than in bricks-and-mortar retail as it is the only reliable-ish gauge of “quality”. After all, fans always gush, (most) reviewers won’t shoot themselves in the foot with a bad review, and artistic photos can make any piece look good.

    To be fair, pricing (and price positioning) is a hard, hard thing to do. FWIW I’m struggling with a pricing issue in my line of work every day too 🙂

    It’s always a trade-off: whom of your potential customers are you prepared to sacrifice to gain the ones you want to have, and what your product has to be to get there. I think Zelos is doing a great job of nailing that… happy to chat any time if you’re up for it.

    1. Tony Villa

      I’m always up to chat about watches. Price is crucial to keep a business viable. You only get chance to make a first impression. If you’re first impression is “low price” then you’re in a race to the bottom.

  8. Don S

    I sincerely believe that it’s not just down to price. I have a bloody gorgeous white faced Deaumar that I’m proud to wear most days, and also (hopefully) have an incoming Hamtun… Over & above the design, inclusions, quality and vfm, I rate the full & personal inclusive touch that Tony V gave, whether intentional or by default, much more highly than any other individual component of the purchase journey… I’m as happy a Deaumar owner and wearer as the owner and wearer of any other brand as I feel a great affinity with the ‘creator’ than with any other brand. Unfortunately, I believe that Ross has a massive amount to learn in this area, and so the incoming Hamtun will never give the same satisfaction as the Deaumar, no matter how much I have loved the design and detail, nor how much I will love it on arrival…

  9. Peter Winding

    I see the point, but at the same time, if you we based in Asia and wanted to make something cool at a good price, would ‘t you do it?
    I look only for 24 mm lug watches, as they to me are the only thing that works. They dont come that easy, unless one pays crazy prices. And often the MB go wild with their designs, Or they look exactly like a rolex Submariner, wich I find boring. This one takes from some of the different ones and keeps it clean looking, Although the hands should not have been “Mercedes” in imho.

    1. Tony Villa

      To be fair, having worn the watch for a few months, I think I need to update the article as, on reflection, this really is a fine watch that I’ve no intention of letting go.

      1. Peter Winding

        Glad to hear that. I just ordered one, and look forward to seeing it IRL. The caseback screws are the only weird thing, but that I can survive. Again, I am all about 24mm lugs, and the cushion case design did it for me.
        What is your assessment on the WR?

  10. Lawrence Luczkowski

    So how does one go about ordering one of these watch if they aren’t on Facebook?

    1. Tony Villa

      I don’t think you can. You can view the page without an account, but you’re going to need to set one up if you want the contact them.!/Islandwatchtaiwan/

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